Leadership: Watch & Listen

When Leaders Leave the Room

INTRODUCTION:
You’re listening to Tiller-Hewitt’s Leadership Lens Podcast. If you’re a leader - or an aspiring leader - who wants to stay relevant and impactful… YOU’RE IN THE RIGHT PLACE.

At Tiller-Hewitt we believe it’s faster, smarter -- and less painful -- to learn from leaders who have walked before us. That’s why we invite top leaders to be our guests on the Leadership Lens.

Your host is Tammy Tiller-Hewitt – Founder of Tiller-Hewitt HealthCare Strategies. Let’s jump into the podcast.

TAMMY:
Today my guest is Frank Sawyer – VP of Operations at Trinity Health Oakland Hospital.

Frank is a young leader who didn’t waste time climbing the corporate ladder – but he did so it in a manner that reminded me of the great leaders highlighted in Jim Collins’ NYT best-selling book Good to Great. He shares some of his servant-leadership traits and I particularly loved what he said about what to watch for when leaders leave the room. He hooked me when he shared his thoughts on empowerment – empowering people – see what you think!

TAMMY:
Hey Frank, welcome to the Leadership Lens Podcast.

FRANK:
I really appreciate the invite and the opportunity to share some thoughts and just have the back-and-forth conversation with you.

TAMMY:
Well, I love talking to young leaders that have experience, I love that you like leaning towards leveraging emerging technologies, and you have a passion for the elimination of healthcare disparities, particularly for people of color, and you like the use of design thinking and principles to wow hold on, hold on …to create a customer-focused healthcare service experience. So, I love all that. So, we have lots to talk about.

FRANK:
Excellent. Let’s dive in.

TAMMY:
Did you always know you wanted to be in a leadership role?

FRANK:
Yeah, the answer to that is absolutely not. It never really occurred to me, it just kind of happened organically. My focus has always been on whatever my current job is and doing it to the best of my abilities. In that process, I was fortunate to have some excellent leaders and I became a student of leaders as I like to say. I watched them. I studied them. I paid attention to how people reacted and responded to them. I paid attention to what people said about them when they would walk out of the room, and I really became fascinated by leadership traits. I realized over time, that people started to see some of those traits that I valued in me. And then I started to see those traits in myself and kind of realized hey maybe I should lean into a little bit more and have the courage to try to be a leader myself.

TAMMY:
That's awesome. I love that you watched it first to see kind of the good, bad and the ugly and then knew that you were lined up for the good. You didn't say kept your head down but you did say, you focused on whatever job you're in right now. That's really one of the Good to Great principles. I don't know if you've ever read Jim Collins book, Good to Great, but that was really one big indicator across the companies was that the leaders weren’t grandstanders. They were very laser-focused, head down, working on what their job was, what their role was leading their company or their book of business. You're following a great model or you have traits of these great leaders. That's awesome, Frank.

FRANK:
I always thought more about the process: put in the work and the results will happen for themselves. If you don't put in the work, you can't skip to the results. That's where I got the whole just do your job to the best of your ability and see where it takes you.

TAMMY:
Have you worked with people who have jockeyed for position and they weren't paying attention to their own role because they were so concerned about their next promotion or their next role that they had their eye on?

FRANK:
Sure. I think you probably realize that that's more of the rule it seems like, than the exception. Whether it's an early careerist who come in with no experience and no accomplishments and yet they've already decided where they want to get to and they're trying to reverse-engineer a future title without doing the things they need to do, or when you get to leadership at the executive level and people are already game planning for the next promotion before they've done a single thing and the job they just got promoted to.

It's really frustrating to watch and work beside because you realize that there's no shortcuts, there's no cheat codes to achieving that success. If you happen to gain the system and you get there without earning it, you always get found out. Eventually, you get to the point where you don't have the skills, experiences, or competencies to truly perform and then you wash out and where do you go from there? It definitely happens a lot.

TAMMY:
You are right, that's the rule. When we hire Business Development Executives, we always talk about this is the position we've hired you for and you're going to have exposure to every senior leader and every role in the organization. Don't start jockeying. Do your job. And to your point too, as you told the story of when you see that happening, the carnage along the way because they're like I'm going to mow over everybody I can. That's interesting that you've seen that and not fell prey and had to work beside it and learn how to navigate it. Hats off to you.

What do you think are the top leadership challenges today both professionally and organizationally?

FRANK:
Yes. So within the healthcare space, context is everything. Currently, what we're dealing with is what I just call the post-disaster rebuild coming out of Covid. Where we're standing in the rubble of the past two years. Everything's been broken. The people are tired and really just finding the energy to rebuild. Working through change, it's balancing the discomfort of change versus a, how do we get to where we want to go? It's put in the work to change or just go back and revert to how it was before and balancing that. I think folks are struggling with that. But there are really big opportunities to make progress.

Lastly, I would say the uncertainty that results in fear. In terms of nobody knows what the future is going to hold and that scares people and yet you've got to move forward. Just working through a lot of what I would describe as the psychological challenges of how do we move forward in an industry that's really been challenged and the future is uncertain in a positive light.

TAMMY:
Easier said than done, huh? People and organizations can't catch their breath. So, what are you doing innovatively? You and I have talked before about innovation from the inside. How are you leading that on the inside in your executive role?

FRANK:
First things first, it's all about people. And so really focusing on rebuilding the people emotionally, spiritually, physically. It's really taken a toll, these past two years, on everybody whether in your personal lives or professional lives. So, focus on the people.

Tactically, in the workplace, back to basics, get back to basics. It's similar to rehabbing a physical injury. You strip it all down and you just get back to the basic movements and the basic life skills and you start over, and you build brick by brick, back up again.

And then, lastly, you take the fact that okay, everything was unfrozen by this event, and you leverage that to lean into new and exciting ways to do things. Because the reality is the risk of it not going well can't possibly be worse than the crisis you just lived through. So, use that perspective to garner strength you need to create, innovate and go through the change process. But it's really holistic, it’s people, it's back to basics, and it's just unfreezing things and fighting to get to a better place through change.

TAMMY:
I love your rehab analogy. I've not heard one leader describe it that way.

Let's talk about your leadership and your leadership style. How do you continue to support employees, emotionally, spiritually, physically, and basically their well-being?

FRANK:
It starts with the relationship. You've got to have a relationship with them. You've got to talk to them. I really go to my team and say, you tell me what you need and how I can support you.

For an example, we’re into the summer months now, but when we were back in May I pulled in each of my direct reports and I said, okay, for this summer through Labor Day, you're going to work, whatever schedule works best for you. I don't care what time. I don't really even care what days. If you can get your work done, you have almost complete freedom to build your own schedule based on your ability to take care of yourself, reconnect with your family, just get yourself back right.

My ground rules are: you gotta get your work done. In case of emergency, I have to be able to know how to get a hold of you but other than that, you decide. If I have fourteen direct reports, your schedules don't have to be the same. We can have fourteen people with fourteen different approaches, that's fine. But the goal, come Labor Day at the end of summer, is you've thoughtfully and practically taken time away to take care of yourself, to reconnect with your family and your passions in life. Because I know what the end of all this, you'll be a better and more productive employee if you spent some time, just rebuilding yourself and your personal life outside of here.

TAMMY:
What was their response?

FRANK:
They seemed appreciative. I told them that I was going to hold them to it. So, I was going to circle back and check and make sure that they were moving that direction and not just staying stuck in the status quo. I think they wanted to see if I was serious and so candidly as they say, you got to model it yourself. I've been very transparent with them on kind of how I'm using my time to reconnect with my family and my passion, and I'm working a bit of a different schedule myself. As this first month or so of summer has gone, you've seen folks do it. And then it's really up to me to reinforce and be supportive of them so that they feel comfortable that it's not some kind of ruse, and they're not going to be looked at differently for it.

TAMMY:
I was going to ask if you feel like your team knows your values, but you put your money where your mouth is on that one.

FRANK:
I hope if you ask them directly, they would say, he cares about people. He treats people well.

The thing that I dislike and find disqualifying in people are those who treat other people poorly. You can't be a part of my team if you treat people poorly. At a visceral level, it upsets me. In that same vein, of this initiative that I was telling you about I believe in, try stuff. Bring great ideas that I can say yes to and don't be afraid to see what happens by trying new things. This whole activity is just about try schedules that work for you, try different approaches to working and different routines until you find one that just resonates with you and your spirit and what you need to be, to be great at your job.

TAMMY:
What qualities do you think are lacking among today's leaders?

FRANK:
In a word, courage.

TAMMY:
Ohhh, bam! Mic drop on that one.

FRANK:
The reality is that we are all leading because we got to do the hard stuff. The things that need to be done aren't going to be popular, easy or necessarily make a lot of friends but they need to be done for the organization or the team's or the patients or what have you. We all could use more courage and less fear.

TAMMY:
What do you think the biggest fear is?

FRANK:
I think failure. I think when you look at people who make it to leadership roles, most of us are Type A, most of us are achievement-oriented and it's what if it doesn't work? What if it goes wrong? What's that going to mean for me, my reputation, my income, my family? When in reality, name one phenomenal success story that didn't fail along the way. It's not about failure, it’s what you learn from it, and that's whether you grow. There's a perception that the corporate world has a one-strike policy. Where if you mess up, it's game over. And so, I think it just paralyzes people.

TAMMY:
That was good. What would you say your secret weapon is or your secret talent that’s helped you in your career?

FRANK:
I love this question. In terms of secret weapon, I thought of two. One, I'm very observant. I'll enter a situation, a group or team or organization and you watch, quietly watch. And when people forget your there, they reveal themselves. Who are they? How do they tick? What the internal politics? What are the Game of Thrones dynamics in the organization that you wouldn't pick up on if you were talking or trying to make a name for yourself out of the gate? You can arm yourself with that intel very, very quickly, just by being quiet and listening and asking questions and then you're much more effective.

The second one I would say is taking complex topics of which healthcare is immensely complex and being able to understand and then explain it in ways that are easy to understand. When you're in rooms with people trying to problem solve multidisciplinary issues, you've got to be able to instill it in a way where eight different disciplines can understand what are we trying to do? That's what I would say my secret sauce is.

TAMMY:
Those are both very good. I think because we work in such a fast-paced, everybody's talking and it's loud and that you being observant, the impact of that is hugely underestimated. I think people just think that he's a quiet guy when really you're like formulating a plan by just listening. I love it.

I know we talked about what qualities are lacking in today's leaders, do you think there's a mistake that's different than the qualities that we’re lacking that leaders make frequently?

FRANK:
Yeah, absolutely! And it's less about mistakes but just what folks don't necessarily spend enough attention to. To me, one thing I think leaders would be good to remember is that accountability is bi-directional. Too often leaders think you're accountable to me, but in reality, you as a leader are accountable to your team. You’re accountable to communicate with them. You're accountable to make sure they understand the direction. You're accountable to make sure you're giving them the tools they need to be successful and thrive. Too often we'll have leaders that will say, well, you didn't do X, Y and Z, but the answer is, well yeah, boss but you didn't give me that one thing I absolutely needed to make that possible. Just remembering that we are just as much in service to the folks that work for us as they are to us as the leader or the boss.

TAMMY:
Do you feel like you picked that up from any organization, any leader or is that just innate in you and your upbringing to know leadership means servanthood as well?

FRANK:
I think it's a little bit of both. I've worked for leaders that instilled that leadership is about service. I also had some leaders that would always ask, what do you need to make this happen? Which I always found to be a very empowering question because in that it was what can I do for you to help you do this? And then you learn in the inverse as well, by watching what not to do as well. But definitely, a behavior that I've gotten to experience from both sides.

TAMMY:
Well, clearly your leadership style and approach, people would love to have you as a mentor. This is a two-part question: do you serve as a mentor, and have you had mentors along the way?

FRANK:
Yes. And yes. I have mentored and I love it. I love teaching, I love you know, sharing experiences. I love getting the perspectives and worldviews of people that are coming through at a different time. Whether it's mentoring high school kids or young adults in college or early careerists. It's just something I enjoy. And I learn as much from the mentees, as I'm sure they do from me.

And then I've been super fortunate to have just some phenomenal, professional mentors as well. In my journey, if I'm being honest, are the reason I am where I am today. Folks that took the time to teach and coach and provide direct feedback and pull me aside and say, hey you really messed that up, and here's why and don't do that again, or here's what you can learn from. Not just the pom-poms and cheerleader, kind of mentors. Those ones that really cared about you enough to give you the real feedback to make you better.

TAMMY:
So last night I spoke to a young professionals networking group. There were about 50 young professionals, there was literally one person that was my age, the rest of them were all my kids’ age but I asked by a show of hands how many had mentors that they meet with regularly and only about a handful about five of the fifty, raised their hands. What would your advice be to a group of young professionals about the significance? I mean, you basically just gave someone credit for helping you get where you are today and so people that don't have a mentor, there's one huge opportunity right there. What would your go-to recommendation be if you were up there talking to that group last night?

FRANK:
I would say one, the initiative is on you. The person that you probably want as a mentor is super busy and has a lot on their plate. If you want them to reach out and contact you and do all the work that's never going to happen.

Two, know what you're looking for in a mentor. And by that I mean not just searching for a cool title. You're not looking for a mentor for the purposes of networking. You're looking for someone who has a temperament or personality that resonates with you, who has a career path or objective that you might be interested in. Someone who can teach you skills and experiences that align with what you want to learn and where you're trying to go. And then you simply make the ask. Most people, if you say hey, I just want to learn from you and maybe have a periodic conversation with you and have someone to bounce ideas off of – they’re going to say, yes, And, I can tell you I still do this to this day. I think was having a conversation two weeks ago where I reached out to a business owner and said hey, I just want to pick your brain, I'm interested in your world view and I'm interested in your feedback on some of these things I'm pondering, would you be willing to talk to me? The answer was yes. And so it's about being able to put yourself out there and make that ask. But also in knowing kind of what are your objectives in that in that equation as well?

TAMMY:
I love that. First of all, we always say at Tiller-Hewitt, all you risk is it yes, right? Second, I like the part when you said, be prepared! Like, don't use it as a networking or I want your job, tell me how to get there, but really come very streamlined. You're not going to get their job the next day, but certainly, if that's a goal, that's awesome, and I think people will like that. Not make it completely one-sided. I wish you would have been there last night because I did not articulate an answer like you did. Thank you for that.

We are almost to the end of our time, which is sad because I could talk to you all day every day, but we like to end the podcast with a rapid five wrap-up. Do you mind if I fire off a few questions to you real quick?

FRANK:
No. Let it fly.

TAMMY:
Okay, what are you currently reading or have read or listened to that you would highly recommend to a colleague, a peer, or a young leader aspiring to be in your role?

FRANK:
Okay, I'm going to give you two real quick. The first is called The Patient Will See You Now, (by Eric Topol). It's all about rearranging the healthcare business to focus on the patients as customers first, not the hospital, the payors, not the doctor; the patients as the customers first.

The second is Call Sign Chaos, by General Jim Mattis. I really love this book because he walks through his leadership career in the military and the transition from being a tactical leader to a strategic leader, and the difference between the two. Those two have my attention right now.

TAMMY:
I've not read either one of those, but I will definitely be getting them soon. They sound wonderful.

What word or Mantra do you live by?

FRANK:
Okay, I'm going to give you two quick ones again. The first one is “it's more important to get it right than be right”? I actually stole that one of my favorite sportscasters, but it's all about putting your ego aside, getting it right versus it having to be your ideas. Too many leaders would rather fail doing it their way than succeed doing someone else’s way.

The second is what is the end game of whatever you're doing? Play it to its logical conclusion. See if it still makes sense after you work through all these steps or does it just makes sense at the beginning but not the end. Those are two questions I always ask myself or say to myself whenever I'm tackling a challenge.

TAMMY:
That's good. Listen, those can both translate to your personal, or your professional life, right?

FRANK:
Absolutely!

TAMMY:
Wow! I need to remember number one with my spouse because I'm the one that generally wants to be right. That's awesome. “Get it right”.

How do you start your day?

FRANK:
All right, turn on the coffee maker. 15 minutes stretching routine. Then enjoy the coffee - always coffee. Day Doesn't start without that cup of coffee.

TAMMY:
Coffee. Coffee. Awesome. All right. And then one or two words, what is the most important characteristic of a leader?

FRANK:
I said it earlier, courage, you’ve got to be brave.

TAMMY:
Love it. And what is one word or piece of advice that you would give to your younger self?

FRANK:
Yeah, I would say believe in yourself. Take big swings and quiet the self-doubt. I was one where, you know, I had a lot of fear of failure, and it took me a while to believe that I could, I could do it, you know? And once I believe that I could, I was off and running.

TAMMY:
Isn't it funny how our fear gets in the way? Cornell University did a study of older Americans several years ago, a thousand older Americans and they asked him if they could look back on their life and see one regret, what was their biggest regret? And by far, the number one answer was worry. And if they wouldn't have worried as much, which we know worry is another word for fear and fear of failure, and if they could just have that time back that they would live long enough to accomplish all that they didn't have time to do. I think that kind of resonates with what you just said.

Well, Frank, I so appreciate you being on the Leadership Lens Podcast today. Hopefully, you'll come back for another interview soon.

FRANK:
Anytime. I really enjoyed it and 30 minutes went fast.

CLOSING:
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